Epee Fencing Attacks : Choosing Sword Style in Fencing

When you’re deciding what sort of weapon to
choose, most coaches will recommend that you do not start with the epee. A foil is definitely
the most popular starting weapon. There are actually some really good reasons for that.
If you think about the weapon styles, there are a few key differences. Foil has the smallest
target area, it has the rules of right of way–it’s a strategy weapon. It relies a lot
on point control, on thinking, and on following the rules. Epee, or saber, is the third style
of weapon, and saber has a larger area than foil, but a smaller area than epee, but it
still follows those rules of way, and also with the saber you add the very big difference
of being able to hit with the side, if you happen to make cuts that make points rather
than just thrusts. And epee has the biggest target area, and has no rules of right of
way. So you can see how epee can easily degrade in free for all poking battle, which is not
what it is. It’s still a game of strategy, and if you begin with the epee, you risk losing
the important lessons in point control and in strategy that you learn in foil fencing,
in discipline and footwork, and also in saber, but saber a lot of times will be the third
weapon that you pick up. So, I strongly recommend that you start with foil first before picking
up an epee, even if you know epee is your true weapon at heart. So, before you look
at epee attacks, I would look at foil fencing attacks, which, every one of them will still
hold true for epee, and then add some of the differences. I’d like to concentrate mostly
on the differences between epee and foil attacks, so that this is a good progression after your
foil training in learning the ways that epee differs from foil, and the sort of adaptations
you can make to your foil style to make you a great epeeist.

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Reader Comments

  1. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Hmmm, that is not the long agreed upon rule of thumb. I think your coach just liked saber. Any world class coach will tell you that foil is the weapon to learn on. It is the pivot weapon. Saber is to be avoided just because it is too natural to swat, as you found. That encourages bad habits. The dexterity required for foil trains in the subtlety that will serve both saber and epee later.

  2. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Not at all. I actually perceived from the start that I was a natural saber fencer so I stuck to foil to master the more difficult and universally accepted rule that foil is the pivot weapon, having both saber and epee styles within it. Someone who starts and only does saber or epee can be good in it, but they will find it hard when ; a saber fencer tries to fence epee or visa versa. You are tying to make it personal, a matter of prejudice.

  3. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Any real fencing master will tell you that fencing is NOT a natural thing in any way. In fact, it is all about mastering natural reactions. The on guard position is highly unnatural, which it why it is so hard to learn. I trained with the best American masters of my day, which included more than one foreign defector. Everyone knows this stuff. I am also a sports chiropractor who worked on Olympic athletes. You are mistaken about movement habits and reflexes, too

  4. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan My experience with many college level coaches is that they let students use whatever weapon they are attracted to and it is also universally known that people are more easily seduced by saber because of its use in films, and its more crude general application in blade swinging. Also, college teachers need students, so they are lax. Go to a real fencing academy in Europe and you will find I am being perfectly factual.

  5. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan I have to address this "ask any martial artist" point as well. I am a sports chiropractor as well as a one time national level fencer. Eastern Martial artists are not the basis of drawing a scientific recognition of biomechanics and neurophysiology in sports. Natural movements beyond running all have to be retrained to learn any skill sport. Fencing requires very unnatural training and bad habits are easy to retain. In the end, I did all three weapons, and more.

  6. deaddoc

    @NilsxSin Without flaming. I must disagree with you. If you are beating foilsts, they will be less experienced in general. But any real fencing academy (in Europe) will tell you that foil has aspects of both saber and epee in and is the best place for the student to begin. Basing your views on your personal experienc in your region is a mistake. Listen to the real experts. (Not me, but Olympic level trainers or European academy masters).

  7. deaddoc

    @akithesniper That's right, foil is harder, so it requires more skill and refinement, which is easily transferred to epee and saber. She is right, listen to any real master as I have posted to several comments here. Also, your communication style is rotten. You will get nowhere in fencing or the world like that.

  8. deaddoc

    @bigbearjb4 ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. After years of competing in foil, I began to fence the two others and I feel I got a real full "sword" experience from it. I made my real achievements in foil, but had to much fun and learned so much of the "spirit of the sword" and the Western culture of it, by spreading out. It got me into theatrical fight directing a little and a lot of study of history too.

  9. deaddoc

    @clonedelta22 There is really no more practical weapon in fencing. If any had to be, it would be foil I think because historically it was the training weapon for dueling. You have to learn to make a vital hit in foil. Epee is the last model dueling sword, but if you hit in the thigh, the other guy is hitting you in the gut. Saber has had a lot of problems over the years. It was hard to electrify it, and before that, too many "reputation touches" occurred. Cont2;

  10. deaddoc

    @deaddoc Cont2; The problem with electric saber is that the blade will score with any blade contact of any pressure, so a non-cutting flat side blade lay on will cause a score to be registered. The other is that the equipment is very expensive compared to the other two. Having said that, electrified saber along with the new rules improved it and it is much more difficult than it used to be. I always enjoyed saber, but it is NOT the weapon to start with.

  11. deaddoc

    @deaddoc Cont3; FYI Sir Richard Burton (19th century explorer, writer), proved that the point of a sword is more deadly than the edge two ways; 1. the point travels a shorter distance to the target when it is thrust straight as it is supposed to be, where the edge weapon requires a wide arching sweep to cut. 2. A pierce is medically more deadly than a cut in general. Watch some modern saber fencing, they use the point a great deal. Look the 1977 film "The Duelists."

  12. deaddoc

    @lowlounger Yes, epee is a game of caution, waiting for the other to make an error in movement or target exposure. Foil and saber require defensive moves so they are more aggressive due to having to deceive the defense. That is done with feints, disengages, blade movement, complex footwork, etc. But a lazy epee fencer won't win either. Foil was historically the training weapon for dueling and epee is the duel. But rather live with a wrist bleeding than die with a gut pierced.

  13. deaddoc

    @FakespeareAndCo Plenty of Olympians? I think you are lying, period. Regardless of who you know, your statements reveal a lack of real fencing exposure and appreciation. How many of those Olympians are European? Never touched a foil? I doubt that. It's where you learn fingertip control best. Saber is much harder than it used to be. Your disgust with saber is caused by your narrow focus in epee only.

  14. deaddoc

    @mosihasteen Some people are more physically suited for one weapon or another, that can be true, but looking down on saber is not valid anymore. Saber has improved a lot and become far more difficult, more difficult than foil.

  15. deaddoc

    @hpufo A more experienced epee fencer will likely beat a less experienced foil fencer. Ever notice that when you get rated in one weapon they give you two classifications lower in the other weapons? Never got that far yet? Not surprised.

  16. deaddoc

    @madog177 Since 1983, the FIE requires blades to be made of a very springy steel. They don't break easily. Before that, they did all the time. Most fencers never got hurt, because we are aware of our blades enough to prevent it. But in1983, three blades broke in World Champs, two caused bad injuries and one, in foil, caused instant death, pierce through the eye by a broken blade that penetrated a mask – Smirnoff vs. Behr. S dead Caused a big shakeup and equipment improvements.

  17. deaddoc

    @JakeSaevitzon The point of using a French grip in the beginning is to learn point control via the fingers. If you skip that and go to a Visconti or other ortho grip, you miss that development. That is the ONLY reason for beginning with French handle. Those who start with the old Italian handles "classical fencers," miss this too.

  18. deaddoc

    @GMProducer It heard it this way; Foil is for lawyers, epee is for engineers, saber is for actors. I like yours better, though.

  19. deaddoc

    @Quillons1 But in a test, the modern fencer will likely prevail. Look up Aldo Nadi, Italian and World champion, who dueled with a duelist sports writer who insulted him. Nadi won.

  20. deaddoc

    @TheFencingPanda Correction, if I may, all three weapons are different aspects of the same sport. But the "sport" represents the only Western Martial art. So-called "classical" fencing is merely modern fencing stuck in time.

    I started in foil, competed in it for nearly two decades and then went into the other two. All valid, but together a fuller experience of the Western Sword. Moreover, this led me to theatrical fencing and I read much history as a result, wonderful.

  21. deaddoc

    @vitaminB100 I my day, I would sometimes see top epee fencers try to hit a foot, and sometimes succeeding by laying nearly the entire weapon flat on the floor and slide the point along the slick floor of the gym to hit a toe on the front. How realistic is that? In a real duel, no one would try to hit a toe, just a dumb idea.

  22. deaddoc

    @BeauEvil I did something much like that in the 1980s on with the first groups of rapier and dagger fencing. We used epee blades with a point and rapier cutting edges implied, and a dagger, no strip. I was well trained in foil and won over all styles that came, and they came from everywhere. I mostly used lots of flying parries and circle takes, plus just solid straight attacks. Hardly used my dagger at all. My experience was that epee fencers fared worst.

  23. deaddoc

    @ihaveanoname2 Nah,,, If someone is just poking at you, it is quite possible to take the blade in a bind and hit. I did it a lot. But then, I had been a foil fencer first for a long time.

  24. deaddoc

    @Trulyloyale Your posts are old, but I want to respond because I am an American ex-fencer with some achievement. I have also been in the UK, Ireland, and lived in Slovenia and beat fencers in all those places. In Slo, I beat their women's epee champ at 45 years old. US has plenty of fencing knowledge. What is happening is that colleges need students so they let them have their way more in weapons selection. I agree with you and posted many arguments earlier.

  25. deaddoc

    @Trulyloyale In US we long had many Russian defectors and others. AND it was Georges Santelli (know who he was?), who got fencing started in the US in the 1020s. Aldo Nadi followed him later and Hans Halberstad, German national champ came later to SF. IN World Champs and Olympics I notice US finishes better than UK consistently. And have you noticed who is dominating women's saber? I agree about foil and the 3 three weapons but you are too anti US and just nasty.

  26. deaddoc

    @Quillons1 Read some of my other posts. I completely disagree and have plenty of experience of my own. You obviously only did one and not the other. I easily made meat of "period" fencers or "classical" or whatever and I was first a solid competitive foil fencer. Nadi's opponent used the same weapon as he did. Modern fencers have to master the basics, what you call classic in order to do what you see in competition. You really are reaching all around.

  27. deaddoc

    @Quillons1 Again, you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have an eye to discern the action and you don't know personally what you must master to do what they are doing. You assume a great deal from your "personal" experience. Mine showed me the opposite. Modern technique requires the fencer to adapt to his opponent, which is what I did when I fencing people like you and it was easy to beat them. BS is a big problem you classical and such have.

  28. deaddoc

    @Quillons1 Oh yeah, that is why his brother was the world champion and all. You are typical of your type, full of talk and circular argument. A modern fencer is far more trained, prepared, and adaptable then the usual pot bellied, traditionalist who spends more time arguing touches than fencing.

  29. deaddoc

    @Quillons1 You shouldn't use words you don't understand. And you now must call names because you have no real rebuttal to offer. I accomplished plenty in my long fencing career and made mincemeat of people like you whenever I played at it. You will get nowhere and just argue away your life trying to prove you just hit someone and your little sword world is so important. I walked all over it. and I was one of the inventors of it – was doing it in 1983.

  30. [Deleted]

    @deaddoc okay, what you just said had no significance to my statement whatsoever, i said she is holding it wrong, and it makes her look bad if she doesnt know how to hold a french grip correctly, even if she held it in a beginning set up. While yes you should learn on a french, and yes it is to teach point control, she holds it wrong the entire time. that is all i meant and i do not wish to argue over what i meant.

  31. deaddoc

    @JakeSaevitzon I wasn't arguing with you, just elaborating FOR you. It seems that too many people are ready to "fly off the handle." Which is what will happen if she tried to fence holding it like that. Pun intended. Laugh a little.

  32. deaddoc

    @sniperdude911 Okay, but if you never did foil, how do you know you got just as much in the way of point control. Foil requires different and much more angular work and recovery.

  33. deaddoc

    @vitaminB100 Not just one. And I have seen it tried recently too. The point is that going for a toe shot is not realistic because the chance of being hit in a vital region, head or thorax is very likely.

  34. deaddoc

    @vitaminB100 I did mostly foil, but went to epee and even some saber later on. The experience of all three weapons really rounds out the sword experience. It is true that if you do only epee from the start and don't learn the others,especially you will not be able to understand the value and need of "priority" in required defense, your myopathy is showing. One famous maestro used to use a real 19th century dueling sword to teach the need of right of way, by practical means.

  35. deaddoc

    @vitaminB100 You don't know much it seems. It is not a judge, but a director, and now called a referee. But they must be certified and tested. Protests can be made and sometimes they are. But the system keeps things honest enough to allow the best fencers to prevail. BeauEvil is right, a double wound is not a win. That is why touches used to be counted against and not for. They changed it because it was thought the dumb public would get it better. Bad idea.

  36. deaddoc

    @Quillons1 I have a antique sword collection you would drool over. And a library full of books on the subject, rare ones too. I have an autographed photos of Georges Santelli, Hans Halberstadt, and Ralph Falkner. Way beyond your imagining.

    Too bad you didn't find my posts about the tragic death in 1983 at the World Championships. The best foil fencer in the world was instantly killed when a blade broke and pierced his mask. Point is that little light weapon can be lethal.

  37. deaddoc

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with what she is saying. And how would anyone hold a weapon while displaying it broadside to a camera?

  38. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Again you make illogical comparisons. If you had done foil, you would be able to answer your own question. Foil teaches the student right of way, and a parry system that is easily adapted to saber. The Fench handle prepares the student for the saber handle, and the evasive moves in foil are not that dissimilar from saber. That with advantages for epee present as well. That is why foil is the pivotal weapon and learning with it 1st makes a better fencer overall.

  39. deaddoc

    @deaddoc And KissakiSan, I used to also train equestrian and won ribbons in hunt-jump. I also raced motorcycles successfully as a teen and young adult before fencing. So I know how logical your comparison is…. not at all. It really seems that you are the one trying to cling to something emotionally not logically. That won't help you as a fencer, either.

  40. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Got you there. I was one of the first people to do rapier dagger fencing at Faires in the early 1980s. I won most contests due to my long time national level foil experience. I saw all these fantasy schools you mention come into being. I have a large library on ancient, medieval and later sword history as well as having been a fight director. Modern en guard evolved as the most efficient. Doesn't change what I was saying.

  41. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan I know all about the short cuts people created in these fantasy sword faire, SCA styles. There is no short cut to skill. What you get are people who don't want to spend the time or have the discipline for acquiring real skill and knowledge. That is why I always best these people at their own games. 1. I was a skilled in foil, 2. I was one of the inventors of rapier-dagger fencing at faires, as I said earlier.

  42. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan People have made up these styles, using historical texts to justify jumping into conclusions for their game, that is even less accurate than modern fencing. That is why a trained modern fencer can adapt quicker and win against people doing these fantasy game fencing. Fencing is derived, evolved from a real combat style that evolved itself and has a real place in history. The problem is that modern fencing is forgetting that in the US.

  43. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Finally, the reason you don't get the sense of what I and every real teacher of fending knows about foil first rule is that you mix things up so much you have no real specific knowledge. I spent a good decade in foil competition before I went to rapier and dagger experiments at the oldest Renn Faire in the US. I was so successful because of that. You are all mixed up. I have a parlor wall full of medals from AFLA/USFA competitions as well as awards from Faires.

  44. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan I also have signed photographs of Georges Santelli, Hans Halberstadt, and Ralph Faulkner. IF you don't know who they are, you don't know much about 20th century dueling and fencing – the real stuff.

  45. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan The two I mentioned were important fencers from Europe who came to the US. Both had fought duels as well. Chuck Norris is not a fencer. The two I mentioned have been deceased for a long time. The fact that you don't know who they are is some amount of proof that you don't know fencing enough to discuss it as thoroughly as you pretend. You case is not solid. You have no rebuttal to what I said, so you try to counter with modern autographs.

  46. deaddoc

    @JakeSaevitzon She's just displaying the weapon, not effecting an on guard. How would you hold it if you wanted the viewer to see the whole weapon? Way to committed to criticizing.

  47. deaddoc

    @vitaminB100 In actual practice and even in duels, both don't usually die from one hit. A double to the legs is not lethal. Historically, a duel was either to the first blood, or to the death, depending on priority and one party or the other claiming satisfaction or not. If you look up Aldo Nadi's 20th century duel with a duelist sports writer in Italy, you will note that he had hit him several times before he gave up, and had been hit on his forearm when he had made his first.

  48. deaddoc

    @vitaminB100 Cont; So in the modern game, if both make hits within 1/20 of a second, both lights go off. No one wins. If that continues to "la belle" or "full count" in baseball lingo, the thing can go on until one alone is hit. That makes a case for the multiple wound duel that went to the death.

  49. deaddoc

    @BeauEvil Caution and respect is what kept people alive in the days of chivalric dueling. Fencing, even back then, was always about mastering one's reactive instincts and using the intellect to dominate. Try saber, it's not just kids playing with sticks. It's really difficult now.

  50. deaddoc

    @Trinibadman96 Just think of it as all your previous fouls being good and hit the switch in your brain. It is quite possible to go from being a good long time foil fencer to a good epee fencer. Many of the fencers in my former national level club were class A in both.

  51. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan You've made NO point here, and you're just looking for ways to insult me. I have presented a tight argument and you will not admit it. You might wonder how I might have acquired such rare items. So here is a quick recap; 1. Foil is the pivot weapon and is the best to begin with, ALL real masters know that. There are occasional renegades but that is the long standing rule of thumb. Easy to confirm that,just look. Cont2;

  52. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Cont2; 2. Schools and colleges are lax in applying that rule in America because they want to fill classes and typically don't understand the need to start with foil. 3. I was one of the originators of the trend of various sword forms arriving at Renn Faires. I was doing in the late 70s and 80s at the original CA faires. They have existed for no more than 30 years or so. They are largely constructed from fantasy and then given some hx justification of a sort. Cont3

  53. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Cont3; They may write a book on it, but it is inductively arrived at' That is, the form is established and then justification for it is sought and made mailable by desire. Fencing is a modern Olympic sport that has a pedigree going back at least 2 thou years, earlier to Greece. It is evolved from the chivalric duel. The notion of sportsmanship came from fencing and dueling. To wit, the father of the modern Olympics was Baron Pierre de Coubertin. He was a fencer. C4;

  54. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan C4; The three modern weapons are descended and evolved from the final Western school of the martial art of fencing. These Faire forms you hold out, have no pedigree, were fabricated by fantasy faire reenactors. The best of them are still bastardized forms of play. There is not national or world recognized contests or ranking systems, and certainly no Olympic tradition behind them. They aren't comparable. But a well trained foilist can adapt to any of them quickly.

  55. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan And finally, You obviously haven't learned enough to know that the modern en garde position was developed in order to present less target and allow better and longer reach. It evolved from practical experience and trials in real duels. Moreover, as a DC who also had a long and accomplished fencing career, (whether you acknowledge it or not) I know that mastering the en guarde correctly will prevent orthopedic injuries and other biomechanical problems. U R unqualified.

  56. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan I was involved with it right up through the 90s. I have far more experience in viewing the evolution that you do by your own admittance here. Light years? LOL There is still a large fantasy core to what is being done, it is plain from youtube videos. The fantasy element is greater than ever and not "light years" ahead of anything.

  57. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Your history is skewed and based on incorrect stereotypes. Early firearms were horribly inaccurate. The longer light swords that arrived in the late medieval period got through armor crevices and rendered heavy armor obsolete first. Wong on fencing history too. The tradition of fencing that led to the latest model is a continuous evolution since the Greeks. I will post some data from the USFA website here for you to deny.

  58. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan I wondered when you were going to bring up those highly debatable and likely fraudulent documents that people like Stephan Hand have promoted as factual. But for every period of fencing that you can set yourself into, there was a reason for discarding in WITHIN the realm of sword and fighting logic, not outside issues like the advent of gunpowder. Your little RMA world is bogus and the far majority out there in the relative world knows it.

  59. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan You are incorrect, as my posted USFA historical list shows. Saber is from mounted cavalry saber. Foil and epee ARE from the chivalric duel of honor, not a melee, as in battlefield. The small sword was for dueling and did develop in the 18 c, HOWEVER you are wrong about battlefield absence. In the 18c and Napoleonic Wars, officers would use them against one another when met – no one interfered. That was 2nd Generation War style and the chivalric model. at its height.

  60. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Modern saber IS from mounted battlefield use. The reason upper body is foul is because it was considered a disgrace to strike horse. There was an ongoing debate over the straight or curved weapon, but as cavalry was intended as a shock force, people like Patton argued that the straight saber was superior. Curved is for infantry, but it is risky to spend much time there. The last models of British, French, and American sabers were straight, point intended weapons.

  61. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan If you are using the modern on guard, then you are not period, wherever you think you are. Yes, people tried different things, but the general rule is not the modern guard for pre 17 c fighting. I know about the claims of Stephan Hand. He is known to be a forger and a very unpleasant person as are most of his followers from my own and others experience. Just look at his book reviews on Amazon.

  62. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Fencing Facts
    1. Fencing is one of only four sports to be included in every modern Olympic Games, since the first in 1896. Fencing was also a sport in the original Olympic Games in ancient Greece.
    2. Baron Pierre de Coubertin, the father of the modern Olympic Games, was a fencer.
    3. The tip of the fencing weapon is the second fastest moving object in sport; the first is the marksman's bullet.

  63. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan 4. Fencing is conducted on a 14m x 2m "strip" or "piste" to replicate combat in confined quarters such as a castle hallway. The end of the fencing strip represents the line drawn in the earth by duelists' seconds: to retreat behind this line during the duel indicated cowardice and loss of honor.

  64. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan 5. The 750 gram weight test used to ensure a touch is scored with sufficient force is based on the amount of tension required to break the skin. In a duel, honor was done when blood was first drawn — even if from a minor wound such as a blister.
    6. The target area in sabre, originally a cavalry weapon, is from the waist up because it is contrary to the rules of chivalry to injure an opponent's horse.

  65. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan 9. Famous Fencers: Bruce Dickinson, the lead singer of Iron maiden – foil. Neil Diamond, entertainer – sabre. Prince Albert of Monaco – sabre. Andrew Jackson fought a duel of honor with swords. General George Patton, competed in fencing in the 1912 Olympics and once owned a riding crop with a blade in the handle made by Georgio Santelli, New York fencing instructor and equipment manufacturer.

  66. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan 10. The New York Fencers Club, founded in 1883, is the oldest continuous running club devoted exclusively to fencing in the U.S. made by Georgio Santelli, New York fencing instructor and equipment manufacturer. Most recently, movie star Jerry O'Connell – saber.
    10. The New York Fencers Club, founded in 1883, is the oldest continuous running club devoted exclusively to fencing in the U.S.

  67. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan This entire "conversation" occurred because you claimed that saber was a fine place to begin instruction in MF. Nothing you have said has defended that. You said that it got people "up" quickest and I said that shortcuts create bad habits, even in fantasy sword work, which is what your form is since it is known to be based on likely forged documents and led by discredited, non-objective people. You're acting in a small world that leads no where.

  68. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Doesn't change what I was saying. The associations you list are new and constructed by its promoters, like Hand, who have financial interests. I know all about it. And it was YOU who said that you did Renn Faires and got people going by taking shortcuts, which is how this discussion got started. I said, there are no shortcuts to mastery. This was why you said your fencing teacher justified saber. Still incorrect. And "effective" is AS WHAT?

  69. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Kung Fu is based on much hype and less reality. Tricks with bricks and sticks does not an Olympic sport make. If they let in every claim to legitimacy then even your bogus association and claims would be included in the Olympics. UNESCO allows any application, especially these days, due to politics. I have an associate who is on the USOC, and this is well known. Hand and your groups has been working to legitimize itself through this, but no one cares.

  70. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan This reminds me; Until recently, Fencing was recognized as THE only Western martial art. Since the advent of Stephan Hand and co., the notion of this has been pushed for promoting his own claimed revival of earlier forms as distinct or somehow unique. He acted inductively, going out looking for material to support his aim. None of his sources have been accredited as authentic. Again, no one cares if you made up a little assoc. To claim world recognition – a lie

  71. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan I checked the UNESCO site. They don't vet applicants. All you need do is apply and that is what happened. Getting on a list is NOT world recognition as a valid, historical martial art. You are just pretending that it does.

  72. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Because even though this has gone on FAR TOO LONG, I am not going to write down every bit of my experience and knowledge, it would take too long. 500 characters. You go off topic so often like you do here. RMA are the biggest buffoons of all, because they are dishonest about the entire foundation. Oh yeah, The Da Vinci Code of martial arts, cyphers and conspiracies by modern fencing and all. What junk. You were wrong on the first point and had to go on.

  73. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan I have known about the fake history you guys created to form your little niche of nerdiness. My guess is that Hand saw fellow countryman Mel in Hamlet and liked the fencing that fellow Aussie and great fight director William Hobbs and decided to model a form after it. BTW; I've done some fight directing too.

  74. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan This shows your inability to present a logical argument. Since fencing existed for centuries, neither "RMA" or what goes on at Renn Faires could do anything but borrow from it. You have retrograde thought patterns, which is how "RMA" was formed, by putting together what was desired from what already existed. You're an exposed and well understood fraud everywhere.

  75. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan You are not saying anything here. You were wrong in defending saber as a good way to start fencing and could not admit it, after I presented a tight explanation of why it was wrong and must go on expanding, looking for places to claim a victory. This is exactly the sort of person who does fantasy sword like "RMA." Only you guys are worse for the extent of your fraud and lies.

  76. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Funny, you insulted me first, and you don't even recognize it, it seems. You got personal first. You are so desperate that you fell to denigrating the small sword in a very transparent way. As for debate, you don't know the meaning of it. A debate is judged by others. this is an argument. If you were honorable to begin with, you would have admitted your error and not insulted me. You will reply because you are basically a brat.

  77. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan They must be from a very weak division. No one in a strong division can qualify in all three weapons. Getting into nationals from a weak division does not prove anything. Where was this place? Everyone knows that you must focus on a specific weapon to get anywhere. You again expose your lack of knowledge and experience. Perhaps you are lying just to save face.

    I said; NO real master recommends starting on anything but French foil. I will not repeat the reasons.

  78. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Saw an episode of the new series "Ultimate Warrior." A bit nerdy, mixing distant individuals, but the best and most accurate was Napoleon vs George Washington. Washington's small sword derived blade beat Napoleon's Egyptian based saber. Point was proven superior.

  79. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan So? This is an unneeded reply. It says nothing to me that I don't know already or the details that make bigger points of discussion, like the fact that the 14th battle sword was designed to pierce chain mail and get around plate mail.

  80. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan I left out that French foil is used to teach finger tip control of the point, something that benefits the fencer no matter where they go next as finger tip expertise improved ANY type of sword work. I used it to my advantage in all sorts of sword contests after 14 years of foil only competition. And as an accomplished equestrian, trained and awarded, the legs are used more than the hands, and it is all about balance, so unicycle comparison is actually right!

  81. deaddoc

    @deaddoc The best equestrians can ride without their hands at all. Western riders are famous for being heavy handed. The equestrian saddle is used for what is called "close contact" riding found in Euro Dressage, jumping, and hunt riding, which is also derived from military use. Dressage is French and means "training." I was last doing mounted saber drilling on my horse in the mid 1990s.

  82. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan The telling point is not all these organization formed in the past 20 years and getting themselves onto lists. I cannot rate your adjectives since you already have shown a propensity to exaggerate and use hyperbole in commenting. UNESCO doesn't examine petitioners, I checked. Neither is it a sanctioning body for any sport or MA. The telling point is just how many members are involved?

  83. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan After all your disdainful language regarding Renn Faire based fighting, you are hold up a Renn Faire inspired organization as your credentials? The Association of Renaissance Martial Arts?

    I studied that period for years. There is a reason it was superseded. But what you really miss is the progression of history of the duel of honor and the final development of 2nd generation warfare. You and apparently your group miss the cultural reasons for Western martial arts.

  84. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan While I would agree that it has been diminished in modern fencing as well, it still exists in the context of the history of the development of modern fending. Your group looks like a bunch of fantasy faire guys who began to take themselves too seriously. And I am NOT saying that texts don't exist, but some have been found in dubious ways to make dubious historical claims. Modern marines train with pugil sticks, so I'm not sure about "extinct" claims.

  85. deaddoc

    @KissakiSan Again, if you knew what a DEBATE was, you would know that this is not one. Do you run your contests like this, whoever just keeps coming back no matter how empty handed, wins?

  86. deaddoc

    @mosihasteen I was a foil fencer on the national circuit in the 80s and have teaching credentials. It has changed a lot, that is true. I used to look down on like most. Everyone's entitled to one, but I have what is called "a qualified opinion." Do you want to talk about fencing, about the nature of opinions, or do you just want to argue?


    Right of way is rubbish that's why epee is the best to choose as its more realistic. And Sabre is just two people running at each other and getting the point because they were coming forward. Forget foil and sabre if you want to learn proper duelling

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