Jody Herman, Joshua Block, and Steve Sanders: Panel on Dignity, Law, and Transgender Lives


[00:00:00]
>>OK welcome I think I’ll go ahead and get started. Thank you for coming. This. Thank
you for coming to this program titled Dignity law and transgender lives. My name is Steve
Sanders I teach here at the law school. Let me begin by thanking the people who made this
program possible. [00:00:21]
This is one in a series of programs being sponsored this year by I use Institute for
Advanced Study under the general topic of dignities equality and social justice and
so the funding for our speakers and to make help make the program possible comes in large
part from the Institute for Advanced Study and their program called the Remax seminar
which is named after a late legendary are you. [00:00:47]
Professor an administrator Henry Remax as part of this. There’s also an exhibition for
the next month at the Lilly library and it’s an exhibition that takes advantage of really
unique materials in the lily rare book collection devoted to a kind of exploring different senses
of the meaning dignity and so we’ve put together there’s one display case that has some documents
related to the post World War two human rights movement. [00:01:14]
There’s a draft of the what would become the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. There’s
a copy of the German the post war German constitution which was the first constitution to explicitly
protect human dignity is a constitutional right there is a case devoted to the emancipation
the lily library has a copy of the Emancipation proxy Proclamation a copy of an early draft
of the thirteenth Amendment as it was going through Congress some deeds of emancipation
given by their owners to slaves. [00:01:49]
There is a case devoted to things in the lily collection some interesting documents related
to the history of the women’s movement in the old Rights Movement. So if you. The chance
the Lilly library is real treasure its And Lincoln Room appropriately enough of the Lilly
library that that exhibition is part of this year long dignity programming and that’s up
until March fifteenth other people made this program possible them our School of Law and
many staff people in the law school who helped with this the Department of gender studies
the Kinsey Institute the Law School Center for Law Society and culture outlaw our student
group here in the law school the alumni association the Maori Advisory Board in Bloomington pride
and as I mentioned Bloomington Bagel Company donated the cookies in the back we have some
cookies and coffee if you’d like those now or later. [00:02:45]
I’ll see if you introductory remarks but let me first introduce our speakers who are here
with us today as part of the program. Joshua Bloch who’s there on T.V.. Josh had a family
issue come up but we were able to figure out a way even though he couldn’t travel to get
him here. [00:02:59]
The next best thing to having him here in person. Josh Block is a senior staff attorney
with the National E.C.L. Hughes. HIV projects he is the lead counsel in the first federal
court of appeals decision recognizing that title seven the federal law against sex discrimination
in education protects the rights of transgender students to use restrooms consistent with
her gender identity that case goes to the Supreme Court and will be argued by Josh on
March twenty eighth is that the right date Josh. [00:03:31]
That’s right. All right. If you watched the Grammys last weekend Laverne Cox said Go google
Gavin Grimm today you’ll be hearing from Gavin grooms lawyer at the Supreme Court. Josh previously
worked on Supreme Court marriage equality cases the Oberg of hell decision Windsor and
litigated cases seeking marriage equality for same sex couples in a number of states
his current docket also includes cases involving employment discrimination the use of religion
to discriminate on the basis of sexual organs. [00:04:00]
Nation gender identity access to health care for transgender people military service censorship
free speech. Josh holds his law degree from Yale in two thousand and twelve he was named
one of the best lawyers under forty by the Bar Association and Jody Herman here with
me is a scholar of public policy at the Williams Institute a think tank devoted to sexual orientation
and gender identity issues at U.C.L.A. Law School. [00:04:29]
Jody holds her Ph D. in public policy and public administration from George Washington
University where her doctoral dissertation focused on the development of anti discrimination
protections in public facilities for transgender and gender nonconforming people. Jodi served
as co-author of a groundbreaking report in justice at every turn based on the national
transgender discrimination survey conducted by the National Gay and **** Task Force in
the National Center for Transgender Equality at the Williams Institute her work has focused
on research on the fiscal and economic impact of marriage for same sex couples the fiscal
impact of employment discrimination against transgender persons the development of trans
inclusive questions for population based surveys her main research interests are the impact
of gender identity based discrimination in issues related to gender regulation in public
spaces and the built environment. [00:05:28]
I was at a presentation last spring of the it’s called the Indiana judicial college.
It’s a sort of C.L. leave for search for judges all over the state and they and invite other
judges as well as academics to come in and talk about issues to judges and there was
a presentation there about the emerging issue in Indiana of what standard should be expected
if a person wants a legal change of gender to have the gender marker changed on their
birth certificate or their driver’s license and I was struck that the. [00:06:00]
The judge a person who is a state judge in Marion County sort of introduced this topic
and I can’t quote her exactly but it was sort of you know we all have things in our professional
lives that were called on to do that we may have difficulty with whom we may find to be
unpleasant and this is sort of just one of those things you have to learn to deal with
and it seemed to me an unfortunate way to be to begin a presentation that supposed to
be educating judges about part of their job and about people that they would be serving. [00:06:36]
I’m on Twitter sort of on and off and if you follow you know Twitter. There is a lot of
active discussion about transgender issues and you know this caught my eye. You know
just just something I found Sean Davis is the co-founder of something called the Federalist
which is a conservative website but I mean it’s mainstream conservative you know responsible
people right for them and he’s had other positions. [00:07:03]
You know he posted this at one point this was just a month or so ago he said. Can’t
wait for the first lawsuit against a doctor who didn’t do a prostate check on a woman
who thinks she’s a man and if you follow certain conservative commentators there’s there’s
this consistent sort of tone of snark when they’re talking about Josh’s client Gavin
Grimm they’ll talk about girls who think they’re boys this kind of insulting characterization
and so in light of the theme of the Remax seminar and especially in light of the Supreme
Court’s marriage decision. [00:07:34]
O’BERG fell which talked nine times about the concept of human dignity under the Constitution.
It just really became clear to me and one reason I wanted to do this program is I think
so many of the legal and political questions and issues surrounding transgender individuals
involved not just a sense of formally quality under the law. [00:07:56]
They also involve a basic expectation of did nitty. That you will be treated with dignity
by your fellow citizens and by your government and so what does that involve those are some
of the issues I hope we’ll be talking about today the way we’re going to do this is I’m
going to ask. [00:08:14]
Jody and then Josh to each speak for ten or eleven minutes. Jodi has a presentation that
I think will really helpfully lay a lot of groundwork about the what we know today about
the transgender population in the United States as well as what legal protections exist and
what legal protections don’t exist then I’m going to turn it over to Josh and ask him
to spend about ten minutes or so telling you about his client who is Gavin Grimm and exactly
what are the questions that the Supreme Court will be asked to adjudicate in this case that
he’ll be arguing a little over a month from now. [00:08:50]
So without I’m going to turn it over to Jodi. OK great thanks. So yes. Again my name’s Jodi
home and I’m a scholar at the Williams Institute just out of curiosity has anyone heard of
the Lions Institute. Great. Well that’s a lot more people than that and I thought that’s
fantastic. [00:09:10]
So for those who don’t know we are Research Center and the U.C.L.A. School of Law and
we focus on law and policy issues related to gender identity and sexual intention and
we have a mission to produce research that’s. Responsive to current policy debates. One
of the things that has been a roadblock on occasion to us doing our research is the lack
of research and data collection about transgender people and even people generally and so a
lot of the ways that we learn about the U.S. population are through federal surveys that
are like the census or the American Community Survey we get our our unemployment rate from
their Current Population Survey through B.L.S.. [00:10:00]
But all of these systems are health indicators to National Health Interview Survey but now
these surveys ask questions that would help us identify people. Gary Gates one of my colleagues
figured out a way to do the sort of son souce with same sex couples. So we have to do a
lot of work to either do our own data collection or do smaller scale studies. [00:10:26]
To reach the population that we’re trying to reach through our research. So today I
just want to talk a little bit about what we know about the transgender population from
available data sources a little bit about people’s experiences that might be more relevant
to a discussion about the governor. [00:10:43]
Graham case and to talk a little bit about the law and policy landscape. Right now and
I’m going to try to do all of that and. Also let’s see if I succeed. OK All right. So first
off I want to talk about a study that we did using data from the C.D.C.’s behavior Risk
Factor Surveillance System. [00:11:05]
The C.D.C. in twenty fourteen offered an optional model that states who are administering the
survey could adopt which asked questions about sexual interaction and gender identity. So
luckily I work with the stats was who was able to take that data from one thousand States
and do a model to predict proportions of. [00:11:26]
The trans population and states that we had no data for so for the first time we were
able to create estimates about being out of the size or the proportion of states where
for adults who identify as transgender. And so we found overall that about zero point
six percent of adults in the U.S. identify as transgender which is about one point four
million adults and then we did another model to predict one group younger than was available
to us so we looked at thirteen. [00:12:00]
Seventeen year olds and found that about zero point seven percent of us that I had that
age range would identify as transgender and about one hundred fifty thousand use. So this
map is just a color gradient as often as not so great but lighter colored states have a
lower proportion of adults identified as transgender and darker states have a higher proportion. [00:12:24]
So Georgia was a bit of a surprise. Frankly. That’s a little bit better. And then we were
also able to look more at. Age distribution. So we were able to like I said project that
younger age group but it seems like in this study which is using actual representative
data which is fairly rare. [00:12:52]
That youth are more likely to identify as transgender than adults now anecdotally this
is something that people have thought but the more data that we got the kind of confirming
that anecdotal evidence in particular in this dataset we found that people who identify
as transgender and gender nonconforming and you could identify as transgender Jenner non-conforming
transgender man or transgender woman that people who identify in the general conforming
category their average age is much lower than people who identify as trans men or trans
women so suggesting that people who identify and ways that are non-binary my overall just
be younger. [00:13:35]
And so again that’s what people have thought anecdotally but we have more evidence now
that that’s actually true. Another finding that seems to be somewhat consistent. It was
not. We didn’t find this when we looked just in California but that adults who identify
as transgender are more likely to be people of color and more likely that populations
will. [00:14:00]
More racially and ethnically diverse than the US general population. We can assert why
this is the case we need to do more research but. It seems this finding keeps popping up
and what population based data that we have that. Transfix are more racially and ethnically
diverse. So that’s basically you know the transport relation based on the C.D.C. survey
were doing more modeling to look at other aspects but you know the other way that people
have studied trans people’s experience in the U.S. is just to seek out trance people
and ask them to take a survey and I was part of the team that did in justice at every turn
which was based on a national transgender discrimination survey and took twenty fifteen
we did a follow up called the twenty fifteen transgender survey anyone ever hear of this
when it was happening call. [00:15:02]
Anyway so we wanted to double the size of the prior survey which we had about sixty
five hundred respondents so we were hoping for about twelve thousand respondents We got
twenty eight thousand respondents That’s a heck of a lot of data to claim for the nerves
in the room but one third or who took the survey identified as an ongoing area or genderqueer
in some way which is much larger than the prior survey. [00:15:30]
So just a couple things. Yes. So we respond as came from all fifty states D.C. and territories
including including Guam and it covered a lot of topics pretty much all aspects of life
but I’m just going to talk about a couple here but one thing I did want to show you
quickly is that. [00:15:52]
The map on the left each little dot represents a. Responding to the U.S. transfer of a on
the right is the population distribution of the United States slow feta unfortunately
but the point is that all respondents to the twenty fifteen survey came from basically
everywhere that people live in the United States and transpose don’t just live in San
Francisco or New York writes and trans people live everywhere. [00:16:27]
The other point I like to make about this is like no legislator should think that they
don’t have transputer among their constituents right. So they should keep that in mind. So
I just want to talk about experiences in school and restrooms that were found in the survey.
So we asked people to reflect on their experiences in K. twelve and higher education and over
half so that they and this was just out of people who said that they were either out
as trans while they were in school or they were perceived by others to be trans while
they’re in school so over half of that they have been verbally harassed nearly a quarter
so they have been physically attacked thirteen percent of they had been sexually assaulted
in some way and seventy percent said that they had to leave school because the treatment
of their mistreatment was so bad. [00:17:18]
So this is should be startling numbers for folks and of course this was retrospective
I don’t have just the data from the youngest age group who might have fresher recollections
of what happened in school but still these these are quite alarming statistics and the
last piece also from the survey really is just a bathroom’s generally. [00:17:41]
Believe it or not I did my doctoral dissertation about bathrooms. I got a little some strange
looks of the time but now people are you mailing me saying Gosh that was kind of relevant wasn’t
it. Anyway so we recreated some questions from my doctoral dissertation. Study for the
survey and found that just in the past year. [00:18:05]
Nine percent have been denied access to a restroom twelve percent or verbal harassment
act or sexually assaulted about fifteen. Well over half a voided public restrooms. For fear
of calm confrontation or having some sort of problem using them thirty two percent limited
the amount that they ate or drank to avoid restrooms so if you were planning to be out
all day. [00:18:29]
You just don’t drink any water during the day. So you don’t need to use the restroom
and then eighty percent reported having some sort of physical problem for because of avoiding
about them. So this is also a public health concern and I tried to make that point my
dissertation as well that if you’re in school in a school situation and your eyes are made
to a specific bathroom. [00:18:52]
Remember I interviewed a young trans man who was made to use a bathroom in the counsel’s
office which was way far away from his classes you know he had to decide OK am I just going
to hold it in the next class or I going to go and then be late to my next class I’m going
to like I don’t you know what they call slopes I don’t know what they call me or so those
are the decisions that you have to make and he would talk about how he would if he chose
to hold that he would not be able to focus right you have your focus on your studies. [00:19:20]
When you can even take care of basic human needs. So that’s something to think about
the these are somewhat common problems and just briefly I wanted to talk about you know
the later land for federal and state and I have to admit I made these slides before the
November election. [00:19:40]
And so the first couple slides. You know there might be some things that change coming up
but for the federal landscape there have been a series. There has been progress in. In a
lot of ways protecting trans people from discrimination. You know there was consensus among some federal
agencies at one point in time. [00:20:05]
And maybe not now the title says that the sex discrimination that transgender people
are covered under unlawful sex discrimination protections and that would apply to Title
seven Title nine The Delia guidance I won’t get into maybe Josh. Well but there are also
regulations about access to HUD funded shelters the Affordable Care Act which may or may not
be around much longer have a nondiscrimination section that’s been interpreted to cover trans
people. [00:20:38]
There’s the federal hate crimes act the State Department did new rules about how people
can update their passports and so security records the administration the Security Administration
to new rules to and military service now we have and it’s transparent will out serve openly
in the military. On the state landscape it’s very much. [00:21:03]
So a patchwork states have a lot of different rules for say documents or restroom access
school policies nondiscrimination statutes and I’ll just show a few maps and notice where
Indiana is all these maps fire away. Spoiler alert it’s not good. From my perspective.
So here we have twenty states plus the District of Columbia who have. [00:21:31]
Employment Non-discrimination statutes Wisconsin and New Hampshire are a little odd because
they cover sexual orientation only. And then here’s the Mount for public accommodations
nondiscrimination statutes. I think is pretty much the same except I think Utah drops off
there so that’s one thousand states plus the District of Columbia. [00:21:54]
There’s an alarm state has laws preventing passage or enforcement of a local disk. Anation
law so that would be like to in North Carolina people heard of A to B. to yeah OK so that’s
that there and then just the final slide here just thinking about schools now schools nondiscrimination
statute the map here is a little bit different but we’ve still got thirteen states plus D.C.
who have a law that prohibits discrimination and and schools on the basis of sexual and
gender identity. [00:22:29]
So there’s a huge swath of the country that has not shown up on any of these where there
is room to improve not discrimination laws for transport. And I think I’ll leave that
there are probably way over time. But I don’t know if we want to leave this up but if you’re
interested in more information you can check out our website or send us an email and that
back over your story. [00:23:26]
I was first second sir. So you know Dad Dad is a seventeen year old high school senior
and all of this is a fifteen year old actually just for your high school as a transgender
boy and school and lost her County Virginia very rural county near Virginia shore and
at the end of his freshman year actually Gavin’s new gender dysphoria so great from lack of
treatment is actually on able to attend class perjury at a time over the summer he finally
was able to get the support he needed. [00:24:12]
Transitioned over the summer are changed completely socially transitions to living consistent
generate sanity and everything was fine when he came back to school he had supported administrators
the principal the guidance counselor who all recognized him based on gender identity and
when he asked to use the same restrooms as other boys allowed him to do so. [00:24:40]
The problem started when complained to the school board because they had heard about
a girl using the boys. Actually don’t know what the adults said because the school boards
never actually you know disclose what complaints a copper wire came from but in response to
those complaints the school board passed a new policy that actually ruled on an industry
and. [00:25:07]
From now on students you limit it using the restrooms based on their biological gender
and whatever biological gender means I don’t think I’ve ever seen that particular phrase
anywhere. And students with gender identity issues in the words of the school board will
differ. I’ll turn it if appropriate private facility. [00:25:29]
So you know. Gavin you know as a result. The only real restrooms opens at the nurse’s office
like the one far into the school or single user restrooms the school created specifically
for him. After pass this policy you convert a small utility closets into single cell restrooms
and it’s everyone can use those restrooms. [00:25:55]
Everyone knows they were created for Dad and in order to move them from the same restaurants
other boys use one of the people of the school board meetings that’s. You put them in the
code in a single user restroom if that’s what it’s going to and that’s designs of put them
in that restroom so it wouldn’t be with other people now title mine is a federal statute
the burden of it. [00:26:18]
Sex discrimination and educational institutions receiving federal funds and which is includes
every public school in the country and for this discrimination on the basis of sex. It’s
been pretty well established for fifteen twenty years that discriminating against someone
because they’re transgender is a form of discrimination on the basis of Sats. [00:26:43]
But it’s only in the past couple of years that the courts Tunisians you have begun to
further clarify that when someone is excluded from using the same restrooms as someone else
because they’re transgender that is discrimination on the basis of sex and you know be transgender
people are just trying to use the same restrooms as everyone else. [00:27:06]
The only way they can use those restrooms is that they’re allowed to use the ones you
know that match their gender identity and excluding transgender boy like dad and from
the boy’s restroom. You know discriminated against. You know forces I’m consistent Francis
will. So no one else has to use. [00:27:28]
This case was the first federal case generated a court of appeals holding endorses that that
you. Wrinkle In the cases title mine has a regulation and that that says schools can
provide. Separate restrooms on the schools may provide separate toilet facilities on
the basis of sex. But such disabilities must be comparable and the school wants to say
no those regulations say this is allowed where discriminating on the basis of sex but the
regulation says we can you know that that’s what happens in bathrooms and you know the
answer is the regulation doesn’t say you can discriminate. [00:28:11]
So you can provide restaurants and you have to provide them in an undiscovered country
manner and you couldn’t say only masculine only found that women can use this restroom
and there restroom. It’s an equally available to everyone and you know we have single restrooms
and programs across the country and all of those programs already entertain trans people
based on their gender identity. [00:28:37]
That’s true of the Girl Scouts the Boy Scouts of the Seven Sisters colleges the military
and C.W.A. all of them treat trans people consistently with their identity because that’s
the only way they can actually be included. So we lost in the district or in one of the
court of appeals and we’ve been Court of Appeals issued its ruling. [00:29:02]
It says Well you know we don’t have to decide on our own what interpretation of the regulation
you think is right because the apartment education is explaining that they don’t interpret the
regulation to authorize this discriminatory policy and it’s enough for us to defer to
the Department of Education’s interpretation. [00:29:22]
I think that one for. I think that the decision and the crosshairs of people who worry about
federal overreach and the active Obama administration and I think it was the school board and you
know allies and openings to try to characterize this as as a who decides question out of that
was a judge sided and six. [00:29:53]
Circuit judge who issued Obergefell, the marriage case that the Supreme Court overturned.
You said this is a question about who decides courts or legislators and it’s allowed some
people to paint this as a question of who decides the federal government or the states
and I think largely based on that sort of pitch the Supreme Court agrees that your case
going to Greece to your questions. [00:30:17]
The first is whether or not the Department of Education’s interpretation should get deference
The second was what’s the right interpretation and we don’t know yet what’s going to happen
to the Department of Education’s interpretation hasn’t officially been rescinded yet. And
you well maybe it won’t. We’re not quite sure but if it is rescinded that first question
of you know to defer to the department goes away that second question what does the instruction
of regulation mean still remains and we’re going to find out soon. [00:30:55]
What the Supreme Court wants to do. Josh you’ve raised an issue. I mean so this is one of
many issues where the change of administration in Washington matters right I mean so much
of the argument you’re relying on is a legal position that the Obama administration took
that many people believe the trumpet ministration will not take and that has a direct bearing
on the not least one of the issues in your case right. [00:31:20]
Yeah that’s right and you know can’t overstate you know. The importance. What’s happened
over the past eight years where every single agency in the federal government recognized
that transmit or not in trans women or women and integrating consistently with their gender
identity. Now that’s really important because it allows the federal government to proactively
protect people. [00:31:48]
You know according to the law. What the law requires. And it’s important because of this
deference issue but it’s still important to underscore that you know those interpretations
are right because they’re right. That’s what this that’s requires that how we argued all
along is this is what’s going on in the regulations. [00:32:08]
And if you have any questions about it. Defer to the agency. But it’s never been the idea
that the IJA are or who have been creating these protections protections are you by virtue
of I don’t mind and you know if the agencies are no longer going to be are going to get
the right way. [00:32:30]
You just got to get to court ourselves and our history. So when you talk to people about
this case. Do people automatically tend to assume this must be some big cosmic constitutional
issue that the sort of the future of transgender rights may hinge on this decision not not
at all to underestimate the stakes in this case the great work. [00:32:56]
You guys are doing but how much of will the outcome of this case you think shape the the
the discourse around transgender rights more generally during the gay marriage litigation
the process of twenty years. There was a huge amount it was litigation there was legislation.
There were conversations and that probably helped change public opinion. [00:33:22]
What do you think will be the impact of this case. If you win or if you lose on the broader
dialogue about transgender rights and equality. Well so there’s a claim under Title nine and
there’s also a constitutional right that the court lower court hasn’t ruled on you. [00:33:38]
So even if you lose its own claim that’s a constitutional claim is still there a court
could issue in our ruling saying hey you know the regulation no you interpret authorized
you don’t have to decide whether that regulation. You know you know right or wrong or constitutional
or not. [00:33:55]
That’ll be a separate claim. So I don’t think that you know a lawsuit is final in that way.
That said if a court were really hostile It could write a very broad opinion saying no
this idea of the trance people are protected under sex discrimination statutes is you know
Aloni And you know sex discrimination statutes only protects you know people for having chromosomes
and that would have some pretty bad you don’t revel in the facts at that point you go beyond
the school context because Title seven the Federal Employment Non-discrimination law
has been interpreted by some courts to include gender identity discrimination is a form of
sex discrimination. [00:34:41]
You’re saying it’s there’s the possibility the Supreme Court could undercut that. Yeah
I think if they went out of its way to do that and have like much broader side effects.
I don’t think that’s what would happen and I don’t think we’re going to get the barriers
versus hard transgender protections mainly because you know I think as in so many cases
you know critical vote here is Justice Kennedy and I think that even if he rules against
us at least my hope is that he would and intentionally write something that would have all those
broader negative. [00:35:25]
Specs for I don’t you know that’s a narrow opinion though I don’t think that this is
true. What restroom. You’re going to be able to use or whether you’re going to be able
to use the restroom at all. It is a minor thing. It’s really you know central to let
you transfer people to exist in society and in public spaces use the restroom. [00:35:49]
You can’t go anywhere and the justices have watched and figures over the winter break
because I think it really powerfully and illustrates how this isn’t just about proving a point
and you can use really important but it’s not just going to be it’s really about you
know there’s nobody to function as a full member of a community wherever you are. [00:36:15]
There’s also a powerful story by you know. Justice Ginsburg and other people of being
some of the first women enter Harvard Law School and that you have to meet The Mad dash
across campus go to the only women’s restroom and Justice O’Connor herself talks about when
she says when I first came to the Supreme Court. [00:36:38]
There wasn’t a restroom anywhere near the court that I could use and I’m hoping that
those types of examples really drive home. What’s happened here and the significance
of the sorts of restriction. So Judy when you and I were talking you said that sort
of bathroom pan there has been a civil rights issue beyond just transgender rights the politics
of bathrooms has been a sort of theme of civil rights. [00:37:05]
Yeah it’s an it keeps coming up doesn’t it. Yeah I did it just talking about Justice Ginsburg
at Harvard. There was I think it was one thousand nine hundred ninety two or sometime in the
early ninety’s that was considered the quote unquote. Year of the woman in the Senate because
we had elected like a handful of female senators. [00:37:34]
It’s funny here the woman there’s three of us are but female senators at that time had
no restrooms that were available for them to use in fact I think it was Barbara Mikulski
or somebody that was just. In some sort of. NEWS article or retrospective was talking
about this issue. [00:37:59]
More recently but you know one of the senators had to go use the tourist bathroom and so
they would be out there mingling with the tourists while their male colleagues had their
own private right and yeah for sort of these other think about segregation and Jim Crow.
So what. [00:38:16]
So beyond schools. So there’s H.B. two in North Carolina talk about you know is there
another wave of this bathroom legislation. From states hitting us or about to hit us.
Yeah well I think in my public policy brand I think about it as state policy innovation
so when a state kind of steps out first and does something you know other states kind
of their ears perk up and I like Well maybe we should try that too but bathrooms have
been part of the civil rights discourse for a very long time and most recently you know
this bathroom panic quote unquote has been utilized in order to undermine efforts to
put anti-discrimination protections in place. [00:39:07]
Or also just repealed existing protection so I don’t know folks are familiar with what
happened in Houston recently with with quote unquote. I think it’s called Hero human rights
ordinance there that they got a ballot initiative and. The folks who wanted to repeal the human
rights ordinance had a very just simple slogan it was like No men and women’s bathrooms and
that’s they would own the whole issue down to that one. [00:39:37]
You know tagline and they want. So panic doesn’t have a but I actually just quickly looked
and to see how many states have bathroom bills pending right now and it’s actually sixty
actually always when I say you know you must use a bathroom that is consistent with your
biological sex right. [00:40:00]
It’s definitely it is marketed towards or trying to make a more. Yeah so that it’s about
sex outside of birth or or birth certificate there’s a birth certificate the reason I say
purported is I mean it’s kind of commonly acknowledged these really can’t be enforced.
Right. These are symbolic expressive statements. [00:40:19]
I think statements of anti dignity that are being made that are being directed a trans
people by the Sundance is that. Yeah well there’s one state in particular forget which
maybe Josh knows that they’re saying that if you have a situation where people can go
to the restroom according to their gender identity like if you don’t have a statue in
place that limits based on second sign of birth that there have to be bathroom attendants. [00:40:46]
Placed in public restrooms. You know so we’re going to have bathroom police apparently checking
everybody as they’re coming in and out. I forget what state that is but it was on the
list that I looked at so we have Alabama and Illinois Kansas Kentucky Minnesota Missouri
New Jersey strange enough New York also surprising Oklahoma has something specific about the
Department of edge to education guidance. [00:41:13]
I think trying to undermine enforcement of South Carolina Tennessee Texas and Washington
these are all pleas these are also just last pending. Yeah either the by. Have been introduced
or they’re sitting in committee right now. Yeah. So Josh after North Carolina enacted
its law the did that they sued the United States government of the United States sued
North Carolina so setting away from from Gavin’s case for a second. [00:41:43]
What is going on in the federal courts right now if the this issue is before a federal
court. Whether North Carolina is violating the Equal Protection Clause maybe other provisions
of the Constitution by purporting to tell people transgender people in public buildings.
You can’t use the bathroom that’s consistent with your gender identity you must use it. [00:42:05]
According to your chromosomal sex just briefly what’s the status of the federal litigation
on whether North Carolina can do that or whether these kinds of laws violate the Constitution.
Yes So you know North Carolina. Luckily in the orange which is the I’m certain that rolls
on. And so there are two different components to North Carolina law. [00:42:28]
No one is how this impacts educational facilities and the other is out of buildings outside
of that. Urges is facilities. You know cases controlled by ads and based on that there’s
a street corner issued a preliminary injunction prohibiting enforcement. Now for public buildings.
I mean governmental buildings outside back I’m taxed. [00:43:00]
You need equal protection because I don’t mind doesn’t reach back and forth the district
court the P.R.I. I don’t mind saying but tonight I want injunction all I’m going to actually.
That and that is the point start an oral argument and that piece is going to actual or nay some
time I think a lot of stuff. [00:43:26]
Really sort of put on hold for a little while when everyone’s going. OK All right. Julie
what other issues. Maybe non-obvious issues are affecting now sort of the ability of transgender
people to have legal dignity and socially quite know access to health care and medical
care is an issue that you studied. [00:43:56]
Yeah that’s. Access to health care. I mean. Well first off they see a private anti-discrimination
provision that I mentioned we’re not necessarily sure what’s going to happen with that and
we’ve been told that it’s going to be repealed and replaced but I think everyone still waiting
for that to happen. [00:44:16]
So I’m not sure what’s going to happen with that provision I don’t know if Josh has any
intel and that regard on the CIA but also in a transition related health care is something
that has been routinely excluded from the Health Insurance Plans and I think those exclusions
started popping up back in the eighty’s. [00:44:35]
And so it’s only been recently where there has been a lot of momentum to get transition
related health care exclusions removed from health insurance plans and. There are several
states now that I’m. I don’t remember how many off the top of my head like maybe thirteen.
Regulatory agencies have said the health insurance plans that are sold in their state can’t exclude
transition related health care and there’s a growing number of employers that are providing
it that Human Rights Campaign tracks that over time they actually only one heard of
the corporate equality and where the Human Rights Campaign rates employers by how friendly
they’re OK so they two thousand and eleven. [00:45:24]
I think. They started requiring employers that wanted to be rated to provide transition
related health care than are to maintain their one hundred percent accuracy writing. And
I think people underestimated how how many employers think that like you have to have
one hundred percent rating. That’s very coveted because the number of employers I think they
just cover and one hundred and forty one thousand employees the number of employers providing
that shot up rather dramatically once it was required for the one hundred percent score
but you know when it’s not covered by health insurance. [00:46:01]
You know something that has to be. Out of you know coverage out of pocket more states
are adding removing exclusions from their Medicaid coverage which is which is even though
the situation is pretty and proving it’s still a challenge to access transitionally and let
me ask both both Josh and Jodi about this so access to changes of key identity documents
in I’m curious to know you know in your experience from what you hear from clients from people
who come to the A.C.L.U.. [00:46:33]
Jodee from your research. What is the state of that I mean so in Indiana right now if
you are transitioning gender. It’s fairly straightforward to get a change of name. It’s
a little more hard. It’s a little dicey or in a little more questionable about getting
a legal change of gender. [00:46:51]
There’s a lot of forum shopping that goes on. It’s one of those things that it’s known
that in some counties judges have a fairly lenient attitude that if you get a centrally
a letter from your doctor that says My client is undergoing clinically appropriate treatment
and the the court will issue an order saying that your official gender marker and your
birth certificate your driver’s license should be changed. [00:47:14]
Other judges in other counties want to see evidence of surgery and hormone treatments.
This is something the legislature hasn’t fixed yet in so I’m just wondering you know. Nationally.
What are the big challenges are do there remain significant challenges to just get basic government
documents changed to reflect a person’s gender identity. [00:47:38]
This is a real struggle and on a day to day basis for people in India. Jobs to do have
anything. Well you know I think it varies state by state which is part of the problem.
Some states are really good at issuing government documents that you know match your gender
identity. [00:48:00]
You know whether it’s Stryker’s licenses or birth certificates other states are pretty
onerous these two states for might be a third where it’s impossible to get your first Return
to get changed some other states require genital surgery some other states require some form
of surgery and some states require some form of medical treatment and then there are some
states that are no irony but luckily so reminding travelers license policies are usually more
than yes in part because of me. [00:48:36]
Dangerous to have a driver’s license and doesn’t match your gender identity and every time.
Yours or where I use officer ring. You’re actually exposing yourself to the officer
as some of these transgender anytime you go you know your ID begins with your ID you know
the bouncer you’re sort of constantly at risk of being outed and whether or not someone
is out doesn’t mean that their status as somebody transferred you terribly. [00:49:13]
We’ve had success in some cases challenging those suspected driver’s licenses that didn’t.
Driver’s license that is consistent in general and that any person. It gets harder. In Gavin’s
case because you have top surgery he was able to get an amended or certificate from Virginia.
Earlier this year. Now in a state that only require genital surgery that makes it impossible
for any minor in most states to get an amended bursaries if they get it because under standards
of care from the Standards of Care Organization genital surgery is usually not available for
people under eighteen. [00:49:56]
But the irony of this is even though Gavin now has an image of birth certificate the
school is still using the boy’s bathrooms. So if you want to North Carolina where there
are laws defines biological sex as the sex according to your birth certificate. You would
be able to use the bathroom. [00:50:14]
But Gloucester County School District says you can’t and I think that there really was
no right answer for Gloucester County when presented with the reality that either they
could do what they’re doing which is saying we don’t care what the Commonwealth of Virginia
says the sect’s your sex’s we’re going to find it for you. [00:50:38]
Which is ridiculous. Or they could have said OK now you have an amendment or certificate
you can use the restroom and the actions demonstrate is that this was never about any physiological
difference all along and his body has been changed and you differently. I think it all
just sort of goes to show that Gavin is in this situation because the school knows you
strange down there. [00:51:04]
If the school did not know him as transgender. None of this would be happening. Using the
boy’s restroom at school. Just like you use is everywhere else. The reason why the schools
exclude him is because if things that their students knowledge that you strange gender
will make them uncomfortable or invite. [00:51:26]
It’s not about real physical difference. So the first are just very much to illustrate
the mental school is to say this is about it’s really about social difference. It’s
just yeah well I wanted to follow up just on that question and on a related topic but.
The one thing that I used to work at a voting rights group. [00:52:01]
Back in the day when I was going through grad school and I started learning about voter
identification laws and so at the Williams Institute I tried to do an analysis to estimate
how many trans people might be negatively impacted by voter ID laws so voter ID laws
can range from not every state has and I think about thirty some states have some form of
identification requirements in order to vote. [00:52:32]
You know some you can bring in a utility bills some that you can bring in your voter registration
card or whatnot but in the strictest states which includes Indiana. You have to provide
government issued photo identification in order to vote. So and then there are different
rules about whether or not you can vote by mail and or vote absentee in the States. [00:52:57]
So I tried to estimate how many trans people live in the strictest voter ID states that
require government issued photo ID. In order to vote because if you’re forced to go to
the polls with incorrect I.D. You know they might say your ID doesn’t match the voter
registration rolls so therefore you can vote a provisional ballot and you’ve got like five
days to come back with a correct. [00:53:22]
Id and then we’ll let you vote then your vote. Kaun. So a substantial proportion of trance
folks do not have ID that act the government issued photo ID that actually Knox’s their
current presentation and gender identity in the N.T. D.S. out of people who might be eligible
to vote is close to thirty percent. [00:53:44]
So I think that translates to maybe a couple. I mean like five hundred thousand transpose
here and you know you know potentially might not be able to vote. Because of their I.D.’s
that listen so there’s you know ideas aren’t just. You know for to hand over to the cop
if you get a ticket or to get into a club it can actually impact our ability to vote
which is you know supposed to be a fundamental right. [00:54:13]
Josh I know we’re going to lose you in a little bit but let me ask you another question. So
let’s imagine that one of the justices asks you something like the following sort of what
are the limits of the position that you’re advocating for are there legitimate privacy
and dignitary interests that sort of other students other members of a school community
have what if it’s not a bathroom where there are stalls and things are generally there’s
a certain amount of privacy. [00:54:44]
What if it’s a locker room what if it’s a changing facility what if it’s something what
if it’s a transgender girl what if it’s someone who still has male genitalia. Seeking to use
a women’s locker room. Surely that kind of question is going to be on their minds. [00:55:02]
What’s the answer to that is that you know is this Are there legitimate questions that
don’t necessarily arise from bigotry that might be part of the concerns that parents
and school board members have about how to navigate these questions so. There’s some
really answer to that. The first is that no privacy all students can be accommodated and
nondiscriminatory manner and Gloucester High School they install urine all the Viners you
know from floor to ceiling of primers privacy strips around restroom stalls. [00:55:42]
There’s zero risk exposure nudity in the bath. So even if you thought that there were interests
relating to nudity that were different. None of that applies to DAB then it’s down to use
the restroom. In the locker room true I think that there’s this idea among people in need
of the situation or ational thing that everyone in middle school locker room is walking around. [00:56:07]
That’s the last thing that middle schoolers want to do much less you know entrenched under
the new school student and so the reality is that this doesn’t you know match what people’s
real experiences are at the end of the day. If schools are concerned about possible exposure
to nudity. [00:56:31]
You know the answer chant deeds or simply vanish trains people in public spaces you
have to do it and nondiscriminatory manner and you have your private shower and restroom
facilities. It’s can have this sort of sweeping exclusion and doesn’t even have any rational
connections to what you’re claiming to protect against and this sort of idea of what if people
saw only body parts of someone else. [00:56:59]
You know if it was a train standard girl. The solution isn’t to put the transgender
girl in the OR use restroom she’s going to have you know bras since she’s got me from
all of you know she will be looking like any other girl in the forty’s locker room and
I think one of the things that you know we need to do in this case is sort of. [00:57:25]
So. Well some of these mess about what the physiology of trains people’s bodies look
like doesn’t describe the experience of everyone that you have been on hormone blockers and
prospects. You know for three years and then you will be going through puberty in a manner
consistent with their gender identity as you ology you know their you know clue to even
their general tell you. [00:57:55]
Actually most different. And I’m going to have a whole census. You know. And so I think
that there is this is you know a lot of people who ask you know what I’m trying to transgender
person is and you don’t and I think getting people to step back and say wait a minute
this is actually more complicated than I thought it was I think it’s really important in order
to disrupt some of these assumptions. [00:58:29]
Can you stick around for like five more minutes. Are you OK I got a family. OK preschool is
really rough going to be carried out on the street if you’re not there. I’m sorry. Should
we let you go then. And yeah yeah I think so. OK. Sorry. Thank you so much. [00:58:48]
OK We’re going to stay here. Thank you. Thanks Josh. Q I want to ask. Julie sort of what
is the something we’re talking about at lunch. What what does science. Tell us about this
phenomenon. What are some of the challenges of working in this area about documenting.
The phenomenon of gender identity for people who are resistant to the idea for people who
are soon. [00:59:25]
There is a gender binary. You know law has to reflect that. Yeah I mean that’s that’s
a it’s a difficult question and it’s actually a question that is being debated rather hotly
politically about you know what are the origins of. Gender identity is gender identity something
that’s immutable as an immutable characteristic and same questions are asked about sexual
orientation. [00:59:56]
And you know I think there was effort and sexual orientation to find a quote unquote
gay gene. You know and that hasn’t necessarily been fruitful and there have been you know
studies on brain structures between men and women to see if there’s a male brain or a
female brain and I don’t know that there is actually anything that they have found conclusively
in that area of research yet but I’m not. [01:00:24]
I’m not really up on it. So that’s a big question and I think it’s more so I’m not a lawyer
but it seems like more so a question and legal around because of the criterion for. Pardon
me. You can school me a little bit on the right. Part of gets to sort of this instinct
I have that. [01:00:48]
Law wants to be able to once criteria for drawing lines to put people in boxes that.
Judges might be uncomfortable saying that OK you. You know you were you were biologically
chromosomal a female you’re saying you’re you are male. I need some evidence for how
this could be possible. [01:01:10]
Right. I need to know this is something more that than just a slightly concerned opinion
part of it’s going to have legal consequences. I want to know what the basis for believing
that phenomenon is and so that’s where it seems to me there’s a lot. Pening for work
to be done in this. [01:01:27]
Yeah I think there is certainly something that’s that’s not settled and unfortunately
because you know these are still these are questions about like the origins of gender
identity the origins of sexual interaction whatnot. Is that that’s you know there’s a
somewhat now famous report that came out from the New Atlantis. [01:01:52]
Myra McHugh report on sexual such limitation and gender identity where they did a little
review they did like kind of trying to review the science and their conclusion was that
you know there’s absolutely no scientific basis for the idea that for a bit of non peer
review. A conservative non peer reviewed journal one professor emeritus from Hopkins and another
professor from Hopkins. [01:02:16]
You know and so the but their conclusions were that you know basically there’s no evidence
that these are immutable characteristics and and then of course this report was utilized
in the litigation. You know on behalf of North Carolina and also it’s a favorite of Breitbart
right now they. [01:02:37]
Have been quoting that study quite a bit but you know there are criticisms of that research
in that it’s incomplete like for instance they have not. They didn’t really show. If
that these are if these are not immutable characteristics regardless of the origins.
Then why aren’t there successful. [01:02:59]
Can you know conversion right so conversion therapy is something that has been studied
a great deal and there is consensus there. That conversion trying to change someone’s
sexual orientation or trying to change somebody’s who’s gender identity is not only not successful
but it’s potentially very harmful and so a lot of states are now trying to outlaw conversion
therapy at least for licensing within the state for. [01:03:25]
Their appeal with minors. So. They didn’t provide any evidence that you can if it’s
not immutable that anyone can change. So yeah that science is it’s original up for debate.
This was also I mean I’m on the march in the sort of early gay marriage litigation The
There just wasn’t a lot of research out there about what was the impact on children. [01:03:49]
For example being right and center so young and it was easy then for opponents to say
to rely on studies involving very small sample sizes and so forth but then eventually the
research got better and much more supportive. Actually that’s one line of research that
Williams Institute affiliated researchers have been involved with now and that are trial. [01:04:12]
Goldberg who have done who were thinking ahead to of course for this and did longitudinal
studies of children of same sex parents particularly **** mothers and. You know so longer to know
matched pairs. So a control group and. And same sex couples and when you’re comparing
apples to apples. [01:04:40]
You know similar family structures. You know two parent families what not. There really
is no substantial or significant difference between them but it you know sometimes it’s
tough when some of these issues come up where the answer really is to do some sort of long
longitudinal study and so I think they were pretty. [01:05:05]
Now prophetic but but they were very intentional with a stop wishing you know in the early
two thousand and slew of research that would be longer term have the answers to type a
to. To dispel some of these now the question becomes kind of what do we need in that way
related to right. [01:05:31]
Gender identity Exactly. Yeah we need almost research so we’ve got some time I want to
open this up to the folks who might have questions one of my students Jackson board is very kindly
agreed to. We’ll I’m going to call on my colleague Collin in the back and then here in the front
first so Jackson there the guy in the in the blue jacket. [01:05:52]
We need the microphone just so that this is being videotaped. So the so the recording
can pick you up. Collin Johnson from gender studies in our planning group. So I just want
to just sort of ask a question about one of the statistics that you pointed out in your
research had to do with kind of the shift. [01:06:12]
Sort of amongst younger people to this and this kind of goes to the question you were
asking to sort of non-binary identification or gender not gender nonconforming as and
I don’t know if occasion as opposed to trans per se or trans trans men or trans women which
could actually mean a number of things right. [01:06:29]
I mean it could mean that there’s a shift in kind of nomenclature or the language that
people are using to kind of describe and position themselves or it could mean that a broader
population of people are beginning to sort of see themselves as being implicated in one
way or another in the destabilization of kind of these rigid inertia and sort of binary
difference. [01:06:49]
But obviously that trend if it continues or expands poses a kind of interesting challenge
with regard to legal arguments for you know sort of the protection of trans rights. Precisely
because a lot of the things that were being described were there were certain ins about
kind utility of a kind of. [01:07:11]
You know a gender binary in terms of making rights claims and claims about discrimination.
So I’m curious to know if you what you think about that but it raises a second question
for me which is the entire kind of approach that’s taken. Often in terms of expanding
trans rights claims or really any rights claims which is to kind of start from the position
of how doing for exist. [01:07:39]
The individual rather than questioning for example what legitimate interest the state
has in knowing anything about your gender identification on what legal basis does the
state other than mere custom. Have a right to insist on an identification that then puts
you in a position to be a smart with respect to a world of that sort of is just kind of
customarily divided along binary strict lines. [01:08:06]
Well that’s a lot of there’s a lot of there there or whatever so or whatever. Right. So
I think that there has not been a lot. At least in the research around trying to sort
out what is driving. What is driving trends that we see and gender are generally Devaney
especially among youth. [01:08:40]
So I mean one of the one of the one of the reasons that’s positive. A lot is that there
is a lot of more visibility now of trans there’s more visibility about trans identities now
and that there’s also a growing level of acceptance. And so there’s that those more education and
more acceptance allow people all over time to be more themselves than they previously
would have been. [01:09:13]
If they believed to be living in a system that was particularly rigid around gender
roles. So I don’t eat. I know how to partially address. What you’ve brought up but I just
I guess what I see in the data is a pretty clear trend and the implications for policy
are manifolds I mean in my doctoral work are positive. [01:09:43]
You know that we might have to figure out different ways to retrain society that’s not
based on a gender binary. I mean I think these questions around bathrooms are very indicative
of the fact that we have established this type of binary gender system where all of
our public you know our public spaces are kind of built around this idea. [01:10:04]
And so how do we. Strangely enough. Not everywhere. I mean traveling internationally you see a
lot of differences in the way that people you know arrange their spaces but you know
we we have these spaces for you know modesty and safety and security and whatnot but maybe
we need to rethink you know the gender Veyron gender segregation is the basis for providing
you know safety and security and modesty and public. [01:10:32]
Yeah I mean there’s. There’s a law professor named Terry Cohen who actually did I don’t
know if anyone’s familiar with Terry going to work. That’s really interesting. He actually
he read like years and years worth of plumbing codes. And these plumbing codes dating back
to you know when we were kind of creating more public spaces and public buildings and
as women were entering more commercial public commercial activities like some of the first
places to have women’s restrooms were department stores. [01:11:09]
But he looked at the plumbing codes and based on his research he. He found that these plumbing
codes were just kind of reinforcing the Victorian idea of separate spheres where you know men’s
places. Public and women’s place in the home and so in order to allow women in public they
still have to be cordoned off somewhere. [01:11:33]
And so our reliance on the gender binary for our security and whatnot is just really kind
of the. Reinforcement of physical structures of Victorian separate spheres ideology. You
know so why do we do that why it’s become like a real fight concept in our society.
This is the way that we do things. [01:11:54]
Maybe we should consider. Better ways you know in a way. So yes I’m sixty five year
old trans woman. So I think you talk about the one percent difference between the youth
and adults and I have a little different through about that talked about but that is what I
want to talk about Josh I wanted to say this to Josh and because there’s a lot of legal
minds here I want to bring up this point. [01:12:23]
I thought it was interesting he pointed out that Gavin if Gavin went to North Carolina
because the law says that the your birth certificate is the judge in North Carolina to get your
birth certificate change you have to have bottom surgery. And. And to get bottom surgery
at least for a female to male. [01:12:42]
A male to female you have to be sterilized in Sweden they until about a cup two or three
years ago. Do you get your gender changed to be a sex change you had to be. You had
to sign off on being sterilized. And the European community said that that was human lifespan
isolation and that’s how it got changed there so I think I think I want somebody to get
the information the A.C.L.U. and I think that’s an important issue that I think that that
that. [01:13:15]
You know that whole issue there is to me is an important issue. I actually asked Mark
he’s lying about this once who is the exact. Director of the National Center for Transgender
quality like why this because in some of the European countries that people talk about
forced sterilization and that’s the way the discussed it’s for sterilization in order
to get X. Y. or Z. but that that rhetoric is not used in the United States like we just
don’t talk about it in that way here. [01:13:47]
And so yeah I can see some clear disadvantages of of talking about it that way but it’s just
something that hasn’t. That they will say in Europe or they want to hear it in that
way either. Yeah OK So it sounds like. Maybe the solution is moving towards a more gender
neutral approach. [01:14:12]
In public spaces. But do you think that’s really the best remedy to give dignity to
people who identify as transgender or as non-binary. Well I mean what I think is that it’s an issue
that is that states and schools and governments are going to have to grapple with whether
they like it or not. [01:14:37]
And so whether or not it’s the best way to provide dignity and spaces. I guess that’s
that’s up for question but we don’t have to configure our spaces the way that they’re
configured now in order to get like we can configure it in a way that dignity and privacy
is maximized for everybody right and and that helps everyone. [01:15:00]
So I’ve I’ve maybe I misunderstand your question because I’m thinking of there are schools
and colleges have made an effort to offer gender neutral bathroom general neutral housing
gender neutral locker rooms. So that people. I don’t want to say don’t have to deal with
that issue but don’t necessarily have to come out or out themselves in any way they can
use whatever. [01:15:25]
They identify with but the gender neutral option is there. If they don’t want to identify
at all and I just don’t know if that’s the best remedy because it’s still kind of addressing
that there’s no way like it. It seems like it’s maybe not the best solution for providing
dignity to a person who says I identify as a woman. [01:15:54]
I want to use it when it’s batter. Or submission. Yeah the right. Some people don’t necessarily
some people want to honor a kind of gender distinction they just want to it’s possible
to for that to be changed is not. It is mutable that people actually want gendered space right. [01:16:13]
When you know that’s interesting. There was a case in Minnesota before before the governor
case ever came up as a long time ago and that there is called Going west group I don’t know
if anyone’s ever heard of it but an employer asked that that would go and is a trans woman
who was working there at West group I think their publishing company and she wanted to
use the women’s restroom and they said that she had to use a gender neutral restroom and
so it went to the Minnesota Supreme Court and it was actually they actually found that
under their anti-discrimination laws the employer could determine which restroom trans their
employees not just transferred the employee could use. [01:17:02]
So I think she lost in that regard but her assertion was that she’s a woman she wants
to use the woman’s restroom she doesn’t care for this generally a trial of the issue. And
so for some people that’s you know that might be the case and creating more gender neutrality
for everybody. [01:17:15]
It might not be a desirable result of all of it. So I think there’s a diversity of opinion
on on that. But you know imagine a scenario. Where everybody had access to single occupancy
restrooms. You know. And there were no Men’s or one of those restrooms like you know I
don’t know of anyone being like well I absolutely want a multi style women’s restroom where
I can hang out with other women. [01:17:45]
And you know I don’t know if that claim would come up in that type of a scenario. You know
that’s a hypothetical other questions. Over here. And while Jackson’s going I guess to
me this is just such a multi-faceted issue I mean one great thing that. Jodi slides showed
at the beginning is you know what the state is of anti discrimination laws in states and. [01:18:09]
There are federal courts now that are accepting the title seven covers gender identity so
part of dignity is like formally quality being able to complain when you are discriminated
against on the basis of your gender identity or your transgender status and part of dignity
is just not being actively insulted by your government which is what I think so many of
these bathroom laws are just designed. [01:18:32]
Designed to do that. And part of it is you know being able to obtain health care part
of it is just the public understanding more about what it means to be transgender or gender
neutral or gender **** or something like that. That’s why you know I think some of us now. [01:18:48]
The judges and here. Some of us worry a little bit about the Supreme Court case about you
know if if if Gavin does lose is that going to be translated into this kind of major setback
or will it cause people to fight harder and cause new people to sort of come into a movement
in favor of transgender equality and dignity is the culture of this country around those
issues. [01:19:15]
Will it take as Hmong as it did for gays and lesbians to sort of change public attitudes
as well as to achieve legally quality I just think that’s a really interesting. This whole
case question I guess following what Professor Sanders just said I don’t mean to throw a
wrench in the very reasonable answer you just gave on the bathrooms question but I think
since you’re at where an overall policy institute. [01:19:46]
I want to generally ask how long do you think it would be until we kind of have some significant
progress in all walks of life for transports to be fully integrated is the second you said
that well we could just have single occupancy restrooms I kind of thought of well there
are some times when the government for example in prisons people in that system is so completely
segregated on an agenda bases that it doesn’t seem possible that we would just have such
a simple solution to that and I’ve worked a little bit in a trans focused legal situation
and it feels like a soon as you start to make progress on one part of trans folks trouble
having a normal life some other part of their life becomes difficult so if you start working
on employment stuff you then have to work on identification stuff and then once you
get to that point you have to work on some health care stuff and. [01:20:46]
As an institute that focuses on trans people in all areas. How do you think it will be
until we’re in a position where we don’t just have a new problem. Every time trans people
get one step forward. Judy and I talked about this and she hated the idea of my big sort
of cause yeah I’m sorry that’s a tough question exactly ten years and I did. [01:21:14]
That’s a very good question and I think one thing that’s hopeful is that there’s work
going on in all of those areas concurrently so I don’t think that there’s like one place
that I go to that’s getting all the. And there is no attention being paid to other issues
I think there are emerging issues that probably are getting less attention than others but
you know for so we’ve seen. [01:21:36]
It’s actually been startling to me from the time that I started working at the Williams
Institute in two thousand and ten. How much progress has been made on some issues health
insurance coverage issue in particular has really gained a lot of steam and has. The
states now state regulatory agencies making determinations that you can exclude transitionally
to health care but then of course there are people who don’t have access to insurance
so one of those folks do you know in the when working on Medicaid and whatnot but I think
that there was this. [01:22:16]
Frankly. Not I don’t want to I was going my said like smugness is let’s turn in such a
dirty word. Lately. But there was a lot of confidence. I guess you’d say among people
who are working on specific issues that this was all happening much faster than anyone
ever suspected that trans equality under the law was something that we would seem very
soon especially when there was the idea of a federal statute that at least in terms of
discrimination we would have a statute and people were very very optimistic and I have
to say a lot of the optimism and a lot of that confidence has come to a screeching halt
as of late to the point where folks like who are in the who are in the policy. [01:23:11]
And are trying to point out that there are a lot of small victories that are happening
even at the federal level that there are still movement of there still momentum. Particularly
on identity docs and a lot of state level one. So there there is room for optimism.
I guess in those in that way that the work is not going to come to a screeching halt. [01:23:35]
But. So I guess I’d be curious to hear more from you where you think that attention is
not being paid and where you think that more work needs to be done because I think there
are people that have their hands on various places. I think it was that I worked for a
low income attorney who. [01:24:02]
Does a lot of name in general are quick changes Medicaid work and some employment stuff and
it just seemed like every time a client solved one problem. They were like great. Now let
me address the five other major health problems or right. You know low income problems or
employment problems that just sort of come along with being a trans person and it doesn’t
seem like those problems are going to move forward without just a general push in all
of those areas and I’m sure that you know thirty years ago this was how the gay community
felt generally it was that I have the general problems that are specific to being gay but
I also run into like four other problems because it makes me poorer and it makes me unhealthy
and. [01:24:56]
Maybe that I should just be saying well maybe in thirty years it’ll be like the eighty’s
for the gay community and maybe that’s right. But I suppose I was going to just see if you
had any thoughts on how you thought this was progressing and whether you thought it would
be moving faster or slower. [01:25:16]
I think since the last few months or so hard I don’t know this two so I guess moment name
Samy Applegate and I teach here at the last. I wanted to say partly in response to the
first. Thank you for this this presentation it’s been fantastic. I’ve learned so much
and so often in the past year I’ve heard people who I perceive as a good liberal say well
you know why are people pushing so hard on bathroom issues and it was really interesting
to think about that. [01:25:48]
I mean most of us. Many of us middle aged women understand what it means to not have
access to to a bathroom right away and it is in fact a terrible disadvantage I wish
I wish that restaurants would have you know all unisex bathrooms because it drives me
crazy to be in a line and then the men’s room is open. [01:26:07]
I fact use the men’s room. Here but I would like to say to you that I teach in one of
the clinics and people. Well I would say people who are poor tend to have clumping problems
people who who are minorities tend to have clumping problems some people have problems
they always clump and you can’t solve everybody’s problems right away and it is in fact staggered
so I think you. [01:26:34]
You have to do what you know what you can when you have an opportunity to do it and
I So yes there are all these other issues but I would encourage those of you who are
working you know and on these issues to do the best you can on the issues that that she
can do and. [01:26:53]
And then just keep going forward when the other issues are presented to you. So let
me give Jodi chance to respond let me say one last thing and then we’ll probably out
of respect for your time when you give Jodi the last word. But one announcement I should
have made earlier if you want to try to do something Indiana Legal Services is seeking
one or two legal Exter and for a newly created low income Civil Law Project primary duties
will include representing clients and legal name. [01:27:25]
And gender change court proceedings. This is a two credit hour extra unship is Kate
would hear from. Indiana legal services. So talk to Kate or talk to vendor crisis the
law school’s director of extra chips. If you’re potentially interested in this opportunity.
OK. Jody. OK Well this is the I guess the last point that I wanted to make is that I
think what you’re speaking about really calls for an intersection on approach to the work
that everyone is doing and looking for coalitions across you know interest groups and an advocacy
organization if you check out the U.S. transfer of a report. [01:28:08]
It’s a constant theme that there are interdisciplinary interdisciplinary discrimination is happening
across all those groups so respondents who are people of color across the board have
higher rates of experiencing. Experiencing discrimination or having experiencing poverty
unemployment and a lot of pretty much every measure that’s covered the group as a whole
that was twice the U.S. poverty rate and that health indicators were also rather startling. [01:28:52]
So I think that that report also points to people to an intersection all approach to
doing advocacy that all these issues are intertwined and there’s actually evidence to back up that
approach. Yes I guess that was I don’t know if we want that to be the last word. [01:29:12]
I just I want to be respectful of your time thank you for coming out to the spring. This
is the right thank you THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU cannot talk you know Jody’s happy
to talk you know. Informally but other cookies and coffee in the back donated please use
them and if you want to talk to Judy should be here for a bit so thank you thank you for
having us.

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